I've been observing the debates on the island from a safe distance, so to speak, and have been considering what it might mean for the situation in Germany. Brian McLaren's books are beginning to be translated into German and are being plugged by one of the biggest Christian publishers. The Gulf Stream brings all sorts of "floaters" our way ;) ... but less moaning now... Dave asked several positive questions:
Why does penal substitution have to be central for us? How does believing this doctrine effect other areas of life and doctrine? How does it delight us?
Penal substitution has to be "central" for me because I read my bible. That may sound like a ridiculously blank statement, so I'll explain what I mean. When I read my bible, I am presented with a God who gets angry. This is not all of who God is, or necessarily the main thing, but it's there in black and white. Sure, he's slow to anger, compassionate and gracious, but he gets angry. Recently I read through Jeremiah - the first main point is: Jerusalem's going under because the people are sinful; God (in his sovereignty over the nations) is going to send an army to carry out his judgement. He's like a potter who's going to dash his vessel Judah on the ground. Do I think that's great? Do I get a sort of masochistic pleasure from this? Does this make God attractive to a 21st century student? No. Welcome to the bible: God gets angry.
I submit that the whole argument about penal substitution stems from a problem with the idea that God gets angry and kills people when they sin. At the end of the day it's God's anger and retributive justice that offends the human heart above all.
Penal substitution, that God in Christ bore the penalty for our sin, is a perfectly natural and consistent development of the story and theology of the Old Testament, perfectly in line with God's character revealed in the Hebrew scriptures.
Following from my bible reading, the realisation that I am a sinner who deserves to be put to death would only lead to despair if it were not for the demonstration of God's justice and love at the cross. With OT verses about God's burning hatred of all that is impure ringing in my ears, there is no hope and no assurance if I am merely left looking at an example of selfless non-violence or seeing evil powers being defeated. The cross means the defeat of evil - the cross and resurrection are the first glimpse of the new creation breaking through - but where does that leave sinners who are "filled with every kind of evil?" If the cross only means the defeat of evil, then it means I'm going down with the devil and his angels.
However, the breathtaking mercy of God means that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us - God's justice fell on Good Friday - the Word became flesh and suffered death on a cross, so that God's enemies could be reconciled to him. For this reason I glory in the cross. The cross means that God's righteous anger against me, who should be shut out from his presence, was spent, poured out in full. In short, the doctrine of penal substitution means that there is no reason for sinners to ultimately despair, because there is another place where wrath fell. Access to this state of grace comes through being in Christ, and he gives sinners no reason to despair, because he came especially to seek and save the lost, and says, "no-one who comes to me will I turn away".
Dave also asked: What are the shudder-worthy consequences of pushing it out of the picture? What does it look like when that happens?
I don't think that penal substitution normally gets pushed out of the picture on its own. What normally happens is that parts of God's character get pushed out of the picture. This particularly happens when the story of the Old Testament gets sidelined (apart from a couple of Psalms). As a result, churches have a view of God's character which is perhaps easier to swallow in the 21st century but basically completely modelled upon the ideals of the 21st century. Therefore if, when reading the New Testament, something comes along which involves God's wrath or retributive justice then it's reinterpreted as being fatherly discipline ("you wouldn't let your toddler cross the road alone, would you..."); all offence is removed, and God is once again cuddly. Don't get me wrong - I love hugs, and I love the pictures of God's warm tender compassion in the bible! But access to this grace is by God's mercy, and God's mercy in all generations flows from the cross, which is a demonstration of God's justice (Romans 3:25-26).
The consequences of pushing God's character out of the picture? Well, sooner or later, idolatry. That's bad. Equally, a fine-tuned penal substitutionary doctrine of the atonement without faith in Christ, or without love for others is also very bad. In the NT it says "be merciful to those who doubt". I view books which deny God's wrath and retribution as being erroneous, and they should be countered. Nevertheless I think that struggling with aspects of God's character is something from which no believer is spared, and we also need to think about how to be merciful to those experiencing acute struggles, and consider the tone with which we confront them. Or am I being too cuddly again?
no room for despair
Posted by Sam at 2:53 PM
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7 comments:
Sam. Great post. thanks. Where in Germany are you based?
I see this kind of nice-and-sanitised, hug-able theological musing in much of the european evangelicalism I've come across (based in belgium). Makes me think the problem is deep and will take a huge concerted effort to sort. Without realising it, it seems, churches are failing their young people by neglecting the bible.
I'd love to know what good quality, accessible people & resources I could point some youngish german christians to in order to help them fight for and defend the faith of the gospel with joy. chrisoldfield@gmail.com
ps by "in much of the european evangelicalism I've come across" i really mean "in the little european evangelicalism i've come across"...by no means lots but it's always there. I didnt mean a huge generalisation.
I submit that the whole argument about penal substitution stems from a problem with the idea that God gets angry and kills people when they sin.
Just to put my cards right on the table, I don't agree with penal substition.
Now, let's talk about the bible.
Are you claiming that there is no place in the bible - either Old or New Testament where God gets angry with people and kills them? I'm actually quite willing to admit that these images are in the bible.
The problem that I have is that there are various, contradictory, images of God in the bible in terms of concepts such as forgiveness, anger, justice, mercy and grace. Somehow, we have to read the bible and make sense of these images.
You are perfectly entitled to your opinion about how atonoment happens, but it's simply incorrect to announce that the reason that fellow Christians diagree with you is because they are not reading their bibles.
I disagree with you because I read my bible and come to a different conclusion.
At the end of the day it's God's anger and retributive justice that offends the human heart above all.
I'm not "offended" by retributive justice. I of the opinion that a person living in a state of Original Sin is perfectly capable of engaging in retributive justice. I do not believe that we need the power of God to want to take revenge.
I am of the opinion that God's justice is restorative. I'm of the view that I (and the rest of sinful humanity) need God's Holy Spirit to refrain from taking revenge and to enable me to forgive.
It seems topsy-turvy to me to say that revenge is Godly and forgiveness is unGodly.
Dear Pam,
I think I understand the problem you're expressing. Retributive justice expressed by humans is usually grotesque. For this reason, Romans 12 tells us to renew our minds and refrain from revenge. However here the apparent contradiction is dissolved - we are to "leave room for God's wrath" - God's retributive justice. In this sense revenge is Godly (big G) but not godly (small g), if you see what I mean.
The NT authors manage to think these thoughts together and make sense of contradictory images. Similarly in 1 John, the most classic statements of God's love are made with the backdrop of the reality of his judgement in view (1 John 4:16-19). The "love" statement does not tipp-ex out the idea of judgement.
Can you understand where I'm coming from?
Can you understand where I'm coming from?
Well, I don't want to assume that I do, but let me try it out.
Are you saying that God's wrath and God's retributive justice are something that we don't have a human model for and that we can't understand but that we "take on faith" are different from anything that we know in the human realm?
I have studied the theory of PSA and I think I understand it from that point of view. But I've never really been in a position where I've viewed it as being as "taken as read". I understand PSA on a theoretical level better than I understand the animosity toward those of us who don't hold the view. I have to admit a morbid fascination for the apparent emotion with which some individuals disagree.
It's interesting. I genuinely don't understand PSA and I think, from my perspective anyway, that I'm willing to listen to people who do believe in it. I'll be truthful and say that I probably won't be an easy convert, but I will listen.
But it's rare that people who blog on this will actually stop to answer questions of those who don't agree with them and I wonder why this is? Oh well.
Dear Pam,
Sorry for not answering your question. The reason for not replying is basically a lack of love which listens carefully.
My answer is that yes, I think God's justice and wrath are things we don't have a human model for - because our human versions of justice are marred by sin. Yet this doesn't mean it's different from anything in the human realm. God's wrath against (say) the mistreatment of orphans and widows is described using language based in human experience - "I will punish" "I will destroy". These are things people in the ancient Near East had experienced from their leaders and kings etc. God's judgement is described using this kind of language. The difference is that his judgement and anger is righteous and often directed against those who are in power and suppressing the downtrodden.
As to the question of the emotion with which people disagree (and I include myself here)... I'm sure the sociologists would have a field day :)
I think the strength of the emotion is caused by the "nearness" of the battle. Let's face it, holding to a concept of God's wrath in a secular environment is not "second nature". If the questions being asked are questions which I myself have battled through to come to my position, then when someone comes along and fights against my position I am not just arguing with the opponent, but also once again with myself in some way. Which is another way of saying we fight hardest when we feel most threatened.
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